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(QUOTE) "I'm just saying that the stick twirling in and of itself doesn't reach me."
is that because you cant do it?
its all entertainment........to enhance the visual experience as well as the audiable experience.
even if you were playing in the most layed back groove band EVER, a few stick twirls would just be cool. why not? if u can do it then.....DO IT.
as digital man said, these guys have the WHOLE package going on and thats friggin' brilliant and good for them!!!!
From the little I've seen, Thomas is a scary monster. I wonder if he can swing, though. Imagine if he had all that stuff happening, AND could swing his ass off! Good Lord!
I think the stick twirling is cool. There's a great video of Earth Wind and Fire in concert, and Sonny Emory does a bunch of twirling with glowing sticks. It sounds cheesy, but the crowd loved it and I thought it was bitchin. Why not?
Furthermore....
I find that Latin music will very often (not always) expose a drummer's musical flare. Latin has that sweet and spicy twist to it in just the way you must feel its grooves in order to make it "dance" sort-of-speak, ain't as easy as it seems (for me anyway). A dancing time feel, maybe I can call it that. Very few drummers who don't specialise in Latin can really make you dance while interpreting latin. At least Vinnie has always been honnest about it, "I fake it" he says..., IMO, Vinnie's funkyfying way of interpreting latin is not bad at all, I like it very much. I love Gadd's latin, Chuck Silverman's (the little I heard of him). I also like Kim Plainfield's, Ed Uribe's, Paul Brochu's, etc... Erskine's Latin? As a non specialist of Latin... My FAVORITE!!! You just can't square down mathematically Latin grooves like you can on a snare drum solo...
Santana's percussionists were also part of the Lang clinic in Toronto and they all jammed together at the end. Once again to be fair, maybe Thomas CHOSE not to display some angles of his playing that night, but I don't think Thomas has spent much time working on Latin grooves at all... I was so not convinced... BUT hey... It's never too late...
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<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 19, 2003 10:35 AM: Message edited by: beat Hit ]</font>
Guys:
Let's all give ourselves a break here. It's OK to say that an aspect of someone's playing doesnt really do alot for them - Really, It's OK. That's not slamming, its not bashing, it's not saying they dont have great ability on the kit, or on their instrument, and speaking for myself, it has nothing to do with being peeved at a dude for being able to do the showy flashy stuff. God bless the guy. If that helps him make a living any easier, that's great.
In my opinion, the single greatest feat of drumming showmanship has got to be the Tommy Lee Spinning Drum Cage!!! (Shout at the Devil!) [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]
While I'm still thinking of it, I guess some more clarification is in order. Here's my bar stool philosophy, for what it's worth.
I view the advancement of the art of an instrument in general, and drumming in particular, as walking on the shoulders of those who went before you - taking the ideas, concepts, etc... of earlier players, understanding them from a musical standpoint, and incorporating those concepts into your own playing. Metheny says that he basically wore out his Wes Montgomery records, and Montgomery says he wore out his Charlie Christian records. Each musician builds upon the concepts of those who came before, refines them, and adds their own ideas into the collective "musical stew".
As far as drumming goes, I dont view the stick twirling/showmanship as really advancing the art of drumming and playing per se..... So when I hear that Marco/Thomas et al are the "new breed" of up and comers that will carry the baton and advance the art of drumming, I view the stick twirling and showmanship as separate from their playing ability/musicianship, that's all. I really havent heard Marco/Thomas in a musical context that much at all, so I'm not saying a thing about their musical/groove ability. I'm sure it's amazing, and that they'll do a great job of advancing the art, just as Steve Smith/Vinnie/Weckl have done from Tony/Gadd/etc.....
I'm eager to hear Thomas' music, cause I'm sure he's an amazing player......
What a great forum of ideas we have here, eh?
If you dont like something or someone then thats how you Feel. Isn't a musician expected to express his feelings THROUGH his music/words?
If we all just said or acted like Polyanna, Music wouldnt have no light n dark or tension n release.
If it doesnt do anything for you..then it doesnt. Thats not to say that at a later date you'll look at or hear something/someone in a different light..thats change within.
(ok not gamden [img]tongue.gif[/img] but you get the picture)
The thing with Thomas is....he was a groover playing pop/rock songs and has stated himself that he has avoided the clinic route, as he didnt want to be lumped in and classed as one of those players, the technique freaks. Sadly now he IS doing clinics he wont be able to avoid being cast as this or that, but i'm sure he'll handle it.
He seems to me to be down to earth and level headed, i doubt he takes stick twirling serious at all.
In this months rhythm magazine with the Minneman/rabb/lang interview the last question is "You all seem to be forward thinkers, but your basic love is still music and playing in bands. At the end of the day, is all this stuff just peripheral to the real deal" After rabb and minnemnan give their answers Thomas says..."I just want to write music"
Seems to me he knows where his heart is and whats important. Thankfully he'll be another player who'll give his all to the music side of things not just the Endorsers wanted showmanside to sell a product at shows.
My hats off to the technique freaks who go for broke and the guys who just lay back and play with a little color here and there both are to be commended, the guy soloing and pushing limits is making music that is amazing in his own way and vice-versa for the other guy my hats off to them. Let us appreciate the complexity and innovation as much as we do the simplicity and groove, it is all in it's own way GREAT! I am glad for Virgil and Thomas and Marco and a few others out there who are willing to get up on there own and go for it and create music in their own way and push the limits of drumming and challenge people at the same time, then they can sit down and do an r&b or pop or straight up rock gig and make great music through that medium, it is all GOOD!
And the stick spinning well, it is such a SMALL!! part of what these guys do it really is almost insignificant, it is cool though but just icing on the cake.
Regards Kirk
his playing doesn't grab me the way virgil's does.
his stick tricks are cool but what he plays while doing them sounds stupid where as virgil still keeps a nice groove and can solo very well at the same time.
those doubles around the toms doesn't sound that musicial. just a demonstration of strength and endurance. why would i use that as a fill? what song will that compliment?
that multiple cymbal hit.... cheesy.
maybe lang didn't want to do the clinic thing because he knows he's only a technical guy and can be put in that category very easily.
i think his technical skills are nice but he has quite a ways to go till he can muscially use them as good as virgil.
Thomas talks about the twirling thing and admits it has nothing to do with music. He even says a little about it on his website. He does it because many people (non-drummers) like it and he is an entertainer as well as a drummer. It enhances the experience by adding visual to the musical experience. If the people who hired him didn't like it then i am sure they would let him know. I think it is funny when players of this caliber are scrutinized by players of lesser skill. It is good to judge ALL players, it gives us things to strive for, it helps diversify our tastes. However, i do find it funny when seemingly jealous players can sit there and put such fine players under the microscope and say they are judging their "musicality"; when really they are just trying to justify their own lack of skill and dedication by trying to find fault in those which define the upper echelon of drumming. I am not mentioning any one particular case here on this board, although i have seen it here too. Derek brought up a good point and i guess it put me on this track. I find it laughable when players think they can blast someone like Thomas. It is safe to say that no one on here, with the exception of Erskine, has acheived this kind of success but yet everyone wants to judge it and question its' validity? I would like to see Thomas walk into the room right now and see how many people question his stick twirling, question his use of chops. I would bet that some serious ass kissin' would happen instead. One time at a Weckl clinic Dave got done with a kickin' solo and some guy raised his hand and proceeded with "Yeah, but can you play funk?". Dave then managed to put the idiot's foot in his mouth and some serious groove down his throat. Critique is ok and personal taste is ok too but when the average drummer wants to criticize someone of such great dedication and someone who is a true credit to what we do, i don't have any patience for that at all. To those with that attitude how about you practice 6 hours a day like Thomas, get gigs like Thomas, get chops like Thomas, but till then remember how good you are COMPARED to Thomas and use what he does as an inspiration to better yourself instead of picking apart what you don't like and using as a crutch to justify to yourself your own mediocrity.
Oh, actually i hadn't even read Shredder's post, it was posted when i was writing mine. He illustrates my point quite well. If Thomas has a "ways to go" to get to where Virgil is, well, how far do you have to go till you get to where Thomas is??? Many players of lesser skill many times miss the point, as i think is the case here. Thomas is only a "technical guy"??? What planet are you from? Look at who he has worked with, i don't see alot of prog/fusion stuff on his list, but i do see gigs requiring good FEEL. Whatever sounded "stupid" in his playing i guarantee didn't sound as stupid as your post. Thomas could perform a clinic all over your ass, where do you think you can get off dissin' a player Thomas' playing like you can offer something better? If someone put you under that same microscope as you are putting him what would they find? I bet not as much technique, feel, or groove as he has, THAT'S for sure. With that post your are either one hell of a player or delusional.